[ose1665]

Hi,
Can anyone help have you had a similar problem?
my e39 shakes the steering wheel under very light braking at 70, slightly heavier braking is perfect, dosent happen below 60 mph. I have new genuine bmw disc's and pads, discs re-checked they are dead true both sides and on the face the wheels bolt to. I have checked and re-ballanced the wheels twice, we have found no tyre faults the wheels are true, the wheel bearings are fine and the steering has no free play via the track rods back to the steering wheel. Standard bmw factory fit 16" alloy wheels.
Drives a treat handles well, have had car 2 years and never hit anything with the wheels.. this has just crept up on me. 92,000 miles on clock.
Was wondering if the rack had a damper or if bushes are known to wear which may cause the problem.
We did find the inner brake pads are marked right and left were fitted incorrectly and put them to the correct sides but no change? anyone know why they are handed?
have swopped rear wheels to front to eliminate, no change.
sorry it's a long post, but I have tried most obvious things first.

 

[ak186]

How many miles have the tyres done?

Bushes could be worn on the control arms...

 

[MTec B]

Start with the simplest cheapest option first - get the wheels balanced again (all four) then go from there.......I used to get a wobble between 55 and 65 nothing either side of that - getting them balanced properly sorted it.

 

[ose1665]

tyre age type

Hi ak186 thanks for the reply.
Tyres are front michelin primacy 18 months old they have done 15,000 still have 5.5mm tread very even wear only 1/2mm less tread on inside.

rear are bridgestone turanza E300 6mm tread 1year old. All 225 X 55 16 95W

I tend to be a careful driver don't go in for heavy braking or cornering prefer to get an average 40+ mpg

Are the control arms you mention the ones from the chassy to the bottom of the hub? I suppose you have to replace the whole thing rather than new bushes?

 

[perci]

check who ever balanced your wheels recalibrated the balacing machine,you find they dont,also when the pads were fitted were the calipers cleaned out and copper slip used on back face and edges.

 

[ose1665]

wheel balance

Hi M tec B thanks for the reply,
I have real problems when it comes to balancing.

My local garage uses a hand spun machine they dial in the wheel size and measure the tyre with a big caliper the outer weights are behind the spokes so I think the account for it not being on the rim.

I tried ATS they said alloys are done statically and just slapped a weight in the middle of the wheel !!! I have never come across that method.

Have you found a reliable balancer you can trust?

 

[ose1665]

copper slip

Hi perci thanks for the reply
We cleaned everything up, used copper slip on the pad metal contact faces didn't put it on the pad backs though as they have a lining material on them.

I agree I cannot be sure on the balancer though but how can you tell who's gear is spot on?

 

[dieselpower]

I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that wheels can be balanced to different levels of accuracy - makes me wonder if your wheels are balanced - just not as accurately as they ought to be. If the run out on the discs is definitely ok I think I would be inclined to agree with the other posters and find someone who is going to do a decent job of rebalancing the wheels.

 

[MTec B]

ose1665 - there are varying degrees of wheel balancing - now I only found this out a few weeks back - the place I used said that a proper balance would cost a tenner a wheel but is for as long as you own the car (get it redone as many times as you want). So I will try and explain the difference - when they do a "normal" balance your wheel is put on a single spindle and clamped through the centre and then spun to ascertain where the weights are required.

Now for a more accurate balance they clamp the wheel on through the wheel nut holes instead of the single spindle thus acheiving a firmer fixing and reducing any unnecessary lateral movement - so I am told - and thus giving an accurate reading. I am not an expert but there you have it.

Try an independant tyre fitter if you can find one local - just give a few of them a call get a price (they should all be roughly the same) - don't let them start telling you that your alloy is buckled or rubbish like that - a good fitter should be able to sort it.

 

[ose1665]

a good balancing machine

Hi and thanks again for the input everyone I will try the balance route again.

Have found a likley machine called the GSP9700 at www.alignmycar.co.uk

Found an artical on google about a guy with a wobberly volvo

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/WheelBalance.html, good read.

Am going to Buckley this weekend my closest place with a GSP9700. £7.50 a wheel, they say the machine will indicate a fault in the tyre as it has a contact wheel on the tyre and they may rotate the tyres on the rims to factor out manufacturing imbalance between wheels and tyre but that would cost a bit more.
Will post if it works...

 

[Ronnie]

Could also be the thrust arm bushes/ball joints weak/worn, number 4 and 5 here http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DL92&mospid=47540&btnr=31_0617&hg=31&fg=05

 

[ose1665]

Balanced by GSP 9700

Had all 4 wheels balanced by this machine, The Mutts nuts, never had such a smooth ride and virtually no weights on the wheels strongly recomend. The guy who did it was really careful and even cleaned away any dirt he had got on the wheels. Buckley tyre service, I would give an A++++ rating.
Didn't fix the brake problem or improve it, but I don't begrudge a penny, car is like silk on the motorway.
Have had every bush and joint checked front and back axle and only found one anti roll bar drop link at the rear needed changing, needless to say this has not improoved anything.
Complete brake and disc off, strip down tomorrow, through clean any inspect.
see what happens then....

 

[ose1665]

Bush parts 4 & 5

Hi Ronnie,
We had a really good look at those bushes, the seem quite flexible but then they are not the solid type having pockets in their design.
The bushes are sitting nice and central around the bolts having no sign of droop or distortion. You can flex them with a large screwdriver, which you cannot do with the solid track control arm bush.
Could do with a heads up from anyone who had good knowledge on whats weak and how you could see it.
Ball joints are fine.

 

[Ronnie]

We had a 5 series in with a wheel wobble at around 60-70mph, couldn't feel no play from the ball joints, when we got the thrust arms off as we still suspected them we found the joints were really loose and had some play.

As of yet we've not heard from the customer so looks like it cured it :cool

If your problem still persists this may be a avenue to go down

 

[RYM]

check who ever balanced your wheels recalibrated the balacing machine,you find they dont

This is oh so true, even I did not do this every time I balanced a wheel when I was in the trade.

I tried ATS they said alloys are done statically and just slapped a weight in the middle of the wheel !!! I have never come across that method.

This is a very commonly used method and in my opinion the worst method of balancing. It calculates the balance differences of each side of the wheel and then gives you a counter-balance display. I would NEVER use this method on my own vehicle let alone a customers!

I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that wheels can be balanced to different levels of accuracy - makes me wonder if your wheels are balanced - just not as accurately as they ought to be.

There are many different ways of balancing wheels depending on the equipment to hand:thumbsup

ose1665 - there are varying degrees of wheel balancing - now I only found this out a few weeks back - the place I used said that a proper balance would cost a tenner a wheel but is for as long as you own the car (get it redone as many times as you want). So I will try and explain the difference - when they do a "normal" balance your wheel is put on a single spindle and clamped through the centre and then spun to ascertain where the weights are required.

Now for a more accurate balance they clamp the wheel on through the wheel nut holes instead of the single spindle thus acheiving a firmer fixing and reducing any unnecessary lateral movement - so I am told - and thus giving an accurate reading. I am not an expert but there you have it.

Try an independant tyre fitter if you can find one local - just give a few of them a call get a price (they should all be roughly the same) - don't let them start telling you that your alloy is buckled or rubbish like that - a good fitter should be able to sort it.

I've always been used to working with a Hoffman balancer, the particular model I don't recall. Being a wheel supplier I could programme the balancer to give me readings so that I could balance the wheel accurately but STILL have the weights positioned behind the spokes of the wheel (5 spoke/6 spoke etc):thumbsup

My preferred method of balancing was to use adhesive weights stuck to the inside of the wheel. The machine I used to could be set to register exactly where on the width of the wheel you wanted to position the weights.

Many tyre centres do not have adequate equipment for balancing wheels correctly.

I will try to explain an example as simple as possible...

Take a wheel from a 5 series, one that has a 3" outer lip. The ideal method on a wheel such as this is to position the inner weight behind the spoke (because you do not place weights on a polished/chrome lip) and the outer weight on the very edge of the wheel. The problem with most balancers is they will be looking for an imbalance on each edge of the wheel.

With the above situation the balancer would detect an imbalance on the lip of the wheel but the weight is being put over 3" out of position due to the lip and spoke. Whilst the balancer will record a balanced wheel it has in fact again been counter balanced which is not effective.

I prefer and believe the spindle method is more accurate than securing the wheels with the bolts holes. My reasoning is that the centre bore of a wheel is true and is what centralises the wheel to the hub. The bolts just secure the wheel to the hub.

Using the bolt on method the end result is only as good as the technician setting the wheel up. It is possible to set the equipment up incorrectly and not completely central




Here is my suggestion, I don't think it is a balancing issue. If the bushes have been checked out and are in good condition then have a four wheel alignment done on your car. Believe it or not, vibration under braking at high speeds can be caused due to poor vehicle alignment:thumbsup

I hope this has been explained in a way that you are able to understand. It sounds complicated but it really is not. Problem with the tyre industry is it no longer attracts employees that take pride in their work. I certainly do not regret leaving this trade:thumbsup

 

[ose1665]

results of brake strip and rebuild

Removed brake calipers and mounting brackets so only had the discs on the car.
Noticed when you spun the discs a slight noise like a ticking sound. thing is its identical on both hubs? I first thought wheel bearing, but both hubs identical noise?, no free play, discs clock dead true and on re-assembly and driving windows down past a wall no reflected sound, no whine hum or anything like that at any speed either.
I thought wheel bearings would be virtually silent so any ideas on the ticking sound?
Thanks to A20rym on balancing info, I have total cofidence in the job I had done at Buckley tyre service on the GSP 9700 machine.
As to tracking 4 wheel alignement, this car causes no uneven wear on any tyre in fact its the best car I have ever owned in this respect, to be honest I would hate to have something altered when tyre wear is totally even and handling is just great. Could be intresting to get a read out on the existing situation though just to see how it compairs to spec.
Will be doing 1500 miles in the next week or so, so if there is a problem could be getting a ride home 'on the big truck with the flashing lights'.

 

[mrbarry]

My mate owns and runs a wheel refurb center in Preston, top guy who does good work. Now I am sure I dont need to say the rubber has to be removed before acid dipping them and powder coating etc. So at the end of the job he refits the rubber and ballances the wheels.
The ballancer he uses is a Ferrarri genuine one by all accounts, does upto 28 inch rims, was not cheap! It shines a laser light onto the rim to tell you where to stick the weights and the sizes etc. This machine uses the single center clamp to hold the wheel so I belive that must be a good enough way to do it, although I am no expert by a long shot.
As A20RYM points out the center spigot holds the wheel central and is very important, the bolts are for clamping force only not alignment. You must also make sure spiggot rings are fitted if you have after market wheels, its oftern over looked and not a good idea!


All though the brake disks are true on the outer face (I assume you only put the clock on the outer face as its the common check) the inner could be out, runn out of a disk should be less than 1 thou but even 5 thou may not cause a problem, but 1 thou of variation in thickness across the disk can cause a pulsing of the peddle and shaking of the wheel, normaly evedent at all road speeds tho, and at 5mph on a perfectly flat road under gentle braking the car will show strong undulation on braking force.

The clicking of bearings is where my money lies, bearings on the E39 are not the longest lasting as far as I am told, I replaced mine a few weeks ago and the old ones clicked, once removed the click felt more of a stall by hand, very poor. The improvement was massive once replaced. £85ish per side and 3 hours the 2 to change.

 

[ose1665]

Thought these were a hub change sealed unit at £130 ish a side + fitting can you tell me more on the method your man used, can you just fit new bearings like most non BMW cars????

 

[juggyvampire]

i had same trouble wobble at 60 changed front lowerwish bone bushes to powerflew ,job done lovely now

 

[mrbarry]

The bearing is a hub/bearing assembly in one. You can get them new from about £45 but the cheaper ones are poor quality and last no time at all. I used a good brand and it was around £85, for get the make now and its driving me mad AAAHHHHHH.

Halfrauds charge £115 each btw, they are fair quality but at an extra £60 a pair they can bog off.

I changed them my self, I do all my own work from changing wiper blades to rebuilding engines and gear boxs. Its quite straight forward changing them.