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2005 E63 645CI - Misfire and rough Idle

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54K views 104 replies 7 participants last post by  Bmw e63-64  
6
#1 ·
Hello,

I've read a lot of different thread so far about "misfire" and all seems to have different reasons/problems.

Here it's mine, when I start the car and as long the engine is cold, I have no problem. 2 mn after the idle start to be rough and a message from idrive pop up "High engine loads may damage catalytic converter..."


For the record, we checked and changed the spark plugs and ignition coils but nothing changed so I wanted to get your feedback? Any idea?

here it's the ones I've listed :
- Vacuum leak
- Solenoid Valves
- O ring Valvetronic
- Valve lift (0.3mm to 0.8mm)
- Fuse 91
- Integrated Voltage meter
- Valve cover gasket
- Air intake temp sensor


I have a i910II so please see the pictures of diagnositc below but what kind of better tool do you recommend, a INPA or NcExpert? (for example I plug an Aux cable but can't use so far)

















I will appreciate any ideas or feedback or questions please.

thx a lot
 
R
#3 ·
For a rough idle on these engines, the first things I would check are the PCV valves and then the MAF sensor. I'd also say good battery voltage is worth establishing before investigating any problem at all on these cars.

The PCVs are easy to check - see if they're torn or gummed up with sludge. And if unplugging the MAF has no effect on how the car runs, it's probably not doing its job properly.
 
6
#5 ·
I just changed the ccv (cheap and easy- Thx) I did run a smoke test as well and it's much better without vacuum leaks

I've notice a tic tac noise from the engine and I've seen a O2 sensor quite low

Here is the results of the scan INPA (battery off 11.9v and batery on 13.9v)









I didn't have time to test the MAF sensor and neither the valvetronic servomotor but I will.

What do you think about this scan? I thinking about using Ncexpert (as I also need to unlock the Aux cable already installed)
 
#6 ·
The mass air flow is off the chart at idle, possibly dodgy or dirty maf could try cleaning it. Unplugging it may calm things down. I'd address this first as it will mess the fuelling/air ratio up and your 02 sensors will pick it up and tell the ecu to try and balance it out, which it wont be able to because the information it's getting from the maf is wrong.
Cylinder 5 is pushing the limits on the rough side and the 02 add bank 2 is reading a little high, may be both a consequence of the maf problem. Could unplug the maf and check rough running again. As for the knock readings wtf! Have you checked for error codes with inpa?

The fuel tank breather valve makes a 'tic tac' noise when it's operating, could be that??
 
6
#9 ·
Hello,

I finally had time to clean the mass air sensor and it's better now (use to be 40) :

Also, now I have got 2 errors 274e and 2743 :

and indeed, I think it's somthing with the cylinder 5 :

I'll try to see what can I do on it tonight/tomorrow

If someone has any idea/comments I'm happy to learn

Thanks
 
R
#12 ·
It looks very much like cylinder 5 is misfiring.

Start with some cheap experiments first:

1. Give the battery a good charge.

2. Swap the spark plug on number 5 with another cylinder and see if the fault moves with it.

3. Try moving the coil pack to another cylinder and see if the fault moves with it. Bear in mind that the connector at the top of the coil pack needs to be thoroughly clicked into place, and it's easy to think it's fully connected - even with the latch closed - when in fact it isn't!

4. Place a rod or a long screwdriver on the top of each of the injectors with the engine running, and put the other to your ear. They should all make a tick-tick-tick noise. If the noise coming from number five is quieter or less regular, try removing the injector and cleaning it.

5. Do a compression test comparison with other cylinders.
 
6
#14 ·
Thanks a lot for your reply,

so I bought a new battery 2 weeks ago
I swap the spark plug with the 6th but I have got 2 error then (5th and 6th)
I tried to moved the coil (5->6 and 6->5) but I've got 1 error (the 5th one)
The screw driver Technic, (it's hot lol) but honestly I didn't really hear something relevant but I did made a video (below) with a comment actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9OoB1h5gwg

I think It's coming from the fuel injector or the 5th cylinder bc when I was checking them I heard something around the 5th injector which didn't go through/work (then the warning light appear again)

Regarding your compression test comparison... (so far) I have no idea how to do it :confused

thanks again for your comments/ideas/advice
 
R
#16 ·
The new codes are probably to do with the ECU not being able to find (or operate) the valvetronic motors.

If putting the plug from 5 into 6 gives you a new error on 6, then there's something there that needs investigating. Make sure both plugs are working properly and that you're re-installing the coils correctly after you've moved them.

What was your experience when listening to the injector on 5? Did you hear something unusual when the error code appeared?
 
6
#17 ·
I guessed that too (regarding the valvetronic motors)

the coil and the coil plug seems alright and connected.. but maybe you are right and there is something broken in the coil plug #5 and also another problem on the 5th cylinder.

When I was listening the engine (waiting for the error code appear) I heard like the beginning of a spray sound but not clear at the end... like it start very strong but went weak quite fast, then the error code appear.

Thanks a lot
 
#18 ·
Yes, the other codes are due the valvetronics being unplugged and nothing to worry about.
I noticed your coolant outlet temperature seems a little high, the outlet temperature is normally a lot lower than the main coolant temperature. One of your coolant sensors may be playing up. Try getting the car up to full operating temperature and monitor both coolant temperatures in the live data. I'd be leaning towards a single component causing the fault as it's across all cylinders and only when it warms up.
 
6
#19 ·
Thanks for confirmation about the vvt sensor // Also I discover something on the Error memory :
1B VVT Error_ecu_service_not_supported
1E VVT2 Error_ecu_service_not_supported
It might be nothing, as it can be important but as I have no idea of the gravity, I rather say it.


Quick summary so far :
- spark plug
- ignition coil
- Ccv
- battery
Are all new

I don't have the skill to do a a compression test comparison with other cylinders unfortunately but I'm thinking of couple of other problems as well such as :
- fuel injector #5
- valve cover gasket
- And also this problem from bmw :

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.I. B11 02 05 dated May 2005.
designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
62 Engine - Rough Idle, Misfire Faults after Cold Start

MODEL
E53 (X5 4.4 i/4.8is); E60, E63/64, E65/66 with N62 from 06/04 up to 02/05 production

SITUATION
Customer may complain of erratic engine idle speed lasting for approximately 20 seconds after a cold start.
Check Engine Soon light may be illuminated and misfire faults for various cylinders (e.g. FC 2742, 2743, 2744,
2745, 2746, 2748, 2749, 274E) may be stored in the DME.

CAUSE
Incorrect tolerances and geometry of Valvetronic intermediate levers are causing uneven cylinder filling during
the transitional cold start period (60 seconds after the engine has been started) when the Valvetronic system is switching from the initial 6 mm to a minimum 0.3/0.8 mm valve lift.
CORRECTION
On a customer complaint basis, and after performing diagnostic procedure described below, replace the Valvetronic intermediate levers.

PROCEDURE
Perform basic engine diagnosis (compression, ignition, fuel pressure, etc) to rule out other potential
causes.

1. Allow

2. the engine to cool down.
Connect GT1/DIS loaded with CD 44.0, or higher, to a cold vehicle (coolant temperature below 30
deg C) and from the Function Selection select: "Service Functions", "Drive", "Engine management
ME9", "Test runs" and then "Tolerance test, intermediate lever".

ETC.

@ mojojo : this picture is taken after 5-10mn with the engine ON So I guess it's ok to say that it's warm enough? what will be the problem in your opinion?



thanks for your help guys
 
R
#20 ·
I think I see those codes for VVT every time I run an error codes scan on my car, so I don't think they're anything to worry about.

What do those INPA screenshots look like when the engine is hot? I mean after 15 or 20 minutes of driving?

To mojojo's point above, if a faulty sensor makes the engine think it's colder or hotter than it actually is, this could cause problems. A few months ago I had a problem with a slightly rough idle. When I checked, the coolant temp sensor was under-reading by about 20 degrees. A new sensor fixed the problem.

But let's see how the readings look when she's hot first.
 
#21 ·
+1^

Also noticed in your post the one with the 5 INPA live data pics, there are two shots of the analog 1 screen and in the second shot the maf sensor is not reading anything even though the engine is running and you said you hadn't unplugged the maf sensor at that point. You could have a dodgy maf sensor, I'd check the live data again, give it some throttle and see if the maf readings change accordingly.

Regarding the coolant temperature I think full operating temperature is around the 100 degrees mark. Ive posted a picture with the difference you normally see between the outlet coolant temperature and the engine coolant temperature, this is why I was thinking yours don't look right.

I think if the issue was with the valvetronics, unplugging the servomotors would have improved the issue, so I would keep trying other, simpler, cheaper options first.

 
6
#22 ·
mojojojo said:
+1^

Also noticed in your post the one with the 5 INPA live data pics, there are two shots of the analog 1 screen and in the second shot the maf sensor is not reading anything even though the engine is running and you said you hadn't unplugged the maf sensor at that point. You could have a dodgy maf sensor, I'd check the live data again, give it some throttle and see if the maf readings change accordingly.

Regarding the coolant temperature I think full operating temperature is around the 100 degrees mark. Ive posted a picture with the difference you normally see between the outlet coolant temperature and the engine coolant temperature, this is why I was thinking yours don't look right.

I think if the issue was with the valvetronics, unplugging the servomotors would have improved the issue, so I would keep trying other, simpler, cheaper options first.

View attachment 218586
Click to expand...
I see what are you talking about regarding the mass air flow at zero (but on this picture, the engine is actually Off that's why. Nevertheless I heard the air mass should be btw 9 and 11 when mine is 24

As you I get back hoe I will ride her for 15-20mn then post a screen shoot of analog #

thx
 
This post has been deleted
6
#27 ·
As planned, came back from work and plug the laptop, start the engine after the all day off and this is what I've got :


then I try to change this (but the software didn't let me do it)

I find how to change the rpm so I raised it to 1100 slowly and bring back to 820, then 550 (I went down until the idle stop to be rought)

Then I start to drive.... no error, no weird sounds, expect the big V8 with his amazing sound and power... Finally!! I drove for 20mn (of pleasure, auto, semi auto, sport mode...) and still no error and no engine icon of the dashboard.

I came back, switch it off. Switch it on again and plug, start the engine.. and the message error came back as usual.
That s what I've got :



I noticed 2 things if I compare your screen shoot :

1- The air mass volume (18kg/hr) is high. it should be lower (9-11kg/hr)

2- The cooler output temperature should be much lower... Mine is 73.50 and yours is 19.50. o_O

What spare part do you think I might check? the thermostat? maybe more the water pump?
 
R
#28 ·
Hi

At 550 rpm with a luke-warm engine my MAF shows 16 kg/h, so yours looks OK to me.

Why do you adjust the idle speed manually? Doesn't the engine naturally set this for itself according to engine temperature?

When my car is started from cold it idles at 1000 rpm for a few seconds, then at 750 rpm until the coolant temperature reaches 50 C, and then it drops to 550 rpm.

After driving a few miles I'd also expect your coolant temperature to be much higher than that shown. I think these engines are designed to run around 110 C. Is the coolant temperature sensor reading too low?
 
6
#29 ·
Here is my answer :)

Why do you adjust the idle speed manually?
because I just wanted to try-I m used to do that with my bikes but it's maybe not necessary on this car

Doesn't the engine naturally set this for itself according to engine temperature?
Yes it does

Is the coolant temperature sensor reading too low?
I think it's not perfect but there isn t a big difference

I'm more worry about the Collant output temperature which is high (on the left)
 
R
#31 ·
After start-up, at what time/temperature does the error message pop up?

And which error code is it? (you've mentioned two different codes, I think)

The more information we have on this the better. For example, if you time it precisely, does it always happen (eg) 45 seconds after the engine is started? Does the timing of the error code depend on whether the engine is cold or hot? etc etc

And what was different about your 20-minute error-free drive a couple of days ago? Had you cleared adaptions, or only adjusted the idle speed?
 
6
#33 ·
Rupes said:
After start-up, at what time/temperature does the error message pop up?
:silly When cold around 1:30 and when it's hot 15sec

And which error code is it? (you've mentioned two different codes, I think)
:silly 274E & 2743

The more information we have on this the better. For example, if you time it precisely, does it always happen (eg) 45 seconds after the engine is started? Does the timing of the error code depend on whether the engine is cold or hot? etc etc

And what was different about your 20-minute error-free drive a couple of days ago? Had you cleared adaptions, or only adjusted the idle speed?
:silly I adjuste the idle speed and I went to "Activate" to see and control the valve tronic (F1) of cylinder
Click to expand...
Hi, I answer direclty on your quote with green point :silly
Thanks for your help and questions, this evening I made video to answer, look behind and I hope it will help to understand :confused

1-COLD ENGINE
The car didn't start for the day, so cold engine (15.64 C)
Switch on
I erase all errors (2)
Switch off the car then switch on again
Start the engine
wait and see
The alarm arrive after 1:24sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyxZoHkuoYM

2-HOT ENGINE
The car is hot, engine (53.25C)
Switch On
I erase all errors (2again)
Switch off the car then swiff on again
Start the engine
wait and see
the alarm arrive after 18sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk8mDvJwUE8

I don't know if it helps...
 
R
#32 ·
Hi Iska,

I'm not really sure, but I'm assuming that as the engine warms up the ECU delivers a weaker fuel/mix. I don't know if this is a gradual, smooth transition or stepped.

On another point, it feels as though we're trying to solve several different people's issues but spread across only two different threads. I'm losing track slightly, so I wonder if it might be easier to try to have one thread for each person's problems?
 
#34 ·
The INPA screenshots show that you have one cylinder that is contributing very little effort! A single-cylinder failure is likely to be the injector, but a compression test is needed first....
 
#35 ·
I think there's a few issues here, looking at the live data the coolant temperatures are both raising steadily which would indicate that both sensors are working which would mean the thermostat is stuck open. I'd replace the thermostat.
The maf air readings are all over the place, could still be a dodgy maf sensor.
The battery voltage seems to be jumping around a lot, could be caused by a dodgy sensor or just that the ecu is trying like mad to achieve the requested rpms.
The accelerator position sensor voltage (that's the pwg voltage) was jumping around, should be steady but maybe your foot was touching it.

I would get get some more live data (check the knock readings also) with the maf sensor and valvetronic motors unplugged just to see if it smooths out rpm's, battery voltage and accelerator position sensor voltage.
There may be an injector issue with cylinder 5 you could always swap it to another cylinder to verify but I dont think this would be the sole cause of all the issues.
 
6
#37 ·
Good evening,
I here it's the new video, I unplugged the mass sensor and the 2 vvt servo motors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHrP1DsFUro&t=21s

This morning, I also leave the car at the garage (before the video) to test the injectors by swapping them. When i took the car back, I drove and plug it (inpa). I found the misfire of the cylinder 5 (as before) but also (new) on the cylinder 8. So it doesn't seems as a injectors problems... I did try to change/play the VVT setting (0.295) to see if it change anything that but no better results

I'm loosing patience
 
#38 ·
So with the maf and vvt unplugged we have no misfire codes and knock readings are fine.
I would personally get a new thermostat and maf sensor. Reset all adaptations and see how she goes. Hopefully that'll sort it:thumbsup
 
6
#39 ·
just to be sure when I'm talking about unplugged the maf and vvt (I unplugged the 3 things in red on the picture below) is it right ?

Also, when you talk about the thermostat (it's this piece, in yellow right?)

Thx a LOT
 
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