BMW INPA E36 OBD OBD2 and ADS interfaces explained - Page 6

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    #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36Coupe328 View Post
    Joylove, could do with some more words around this as the bits in red are contradictory, unless the "only thing OBD2 about it is the shape" was only applied to the 16-20 pin adapter.

    i can not even read the OBD datas, My base device is genden EOBD
    http://www.gendan.co.uk/product_STN327.html

    my convertor is
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-20-PIN-16-...item2eb6327168

    Please help as this is driving me nuts, I have seen other tools on ebay which looks exactly same as my cable but say it works with e36. My EOBD or OBDii works on BMW e46 normal 16 pin but not with the convertor
     
     

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    #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux44 View Post
    i can not even read the OBD datas, My base device is genden EOBD
    http://www.gendan.co.uk/product_STN327.html

    my convertor is
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-20-PIN-16-...item2eb6327168

    Please help as this is driving me nuts, I have seen other tools on ebay which looks exactly same as my cable but say it works with e36. My EOBD or OBDii works on BMW e46 normal 16 pin but not with the convertor
    Please keep it to your thread
     
     

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    #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36Coupe328 View Post
    Joylove, could do with some more words around this as the bits in red are contradictory, unless the "only thing OBD2 about it is the shape" was only applied to the 16-20 pin adapter.
    The BMW DS2 system is available on pin 8 of the OBD2 socket after 2002ish. It is electrically compatible with a K line transceiver (12=logic 1, 0V =logic 0, baud = sub 10.4kbaud).

    Before then it is available on the 20 pin socket pin 20 for pre 2002ish E46, and partial facelifted E36 modules (eg M52 DME, PDC, KOMBI, EVO ABS).

    Before then, on E36 (pre facelifit all modules, post facelift - modules such as KOMBI, non EVO ABS that were not updated in '96) and E34 it is not one wire bidirectional, but two wires RxD (15) TxD (20).

    You do not speak OBD2 to the car, only DS2.

    See page 16 of the attached for detail about the diagnostic socket post 2002 pinout.

    K-CAN post 2007ish is also DS2 messaging, but now clocked at 100kbaud to allow high speed firmware updates, classic VAGCOM adaptors can't go that fast. NealP is going to check if that port can be underclocked to 9600 baud for INPA.
    Attached Files
     
     

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    #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by joylove View Post
    The BMW DS2 system is available on pin 8 of the OBD2 socket after 2002ish. It is electrically compatible with a K line transceiver (12=logic 1, 0V =logic 0, baud = sub 10.4kbaud).

    Before then it is available on the 20 pin socket pin 20 for pre 2002ish E46, and partial facelifted E36 modules (eg M52 DME, PDC, KOMBI, EVO ABS).

    Before then, on E36 (pre facelifit all modules, post facelift - modules such as KOMBI, non EVO ABS that were not updated in '96) and E34 it is not one wire bidirectional, but two wires RxD (15) TxD (20).

    You do not speak OBD2 to the car, only DS2.

    See page 16 of the attached for detail about the diagnostic socket post 2002 pinout.

    K-CAN post 2007ish is also DS2 messaging, but now clocked at 100kbaud to allow high speed firmware updates, classic VAGCOM adaptors can't go that fast. NealP is going to check if that port can be underclocked to 9600 baud for INPA.

    Thanks VM, but none of that explains the bit below which is a source of confusion, the below says buy something ODB2 that isn't OBD2

    Quote Originally Posted by joylove View Post
    USB-OBD2 adaptor (£6 eBay) with 16 to 20 pin adaptor (£6 eBay). This contains one USB to K line tranciever. The only thing OBD2 about it is the shape and that it does 12V/0V on pin OBD2.7.


    No warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability for any loss, damage or injury, no matter how incurred accepted.

    Free Gas Kit* now fitted to free 328*

    *Based on ROI period exceeded
     
     

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    #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36Coupe328 View Post
    Thanks VM, but none of that explains the bit below which is a source of confusion, the below says buy something ODB2 that isn't OBD2
    OBD2 defined a number of things
    1 a standard 16 pin connector
    2) that the connector be within a certain distance from the steering wheel
    3) A series of very basic codes to indicate faults
    4) That these codes be requested and transmitted using in the case on most cars, the ISO9141 standard, which defined things like start and stop bits, checksums, baudrates and a 12V idle/0V active one wire bi directional bus.

    Since INPA does not speak OBD2 to the car, beaucse it is severely gimped in the debug messages it can prouduce, and the adaptor is not responsible for applying start/stop, parity or baud rate to the messages (this is done by the PC software), and the ISO9141 compliance is not a mandatory requirment for DS2.

    Therefore, to say the only thing that is OBD2 about it is the shape is based on
    1) The connecotr is shared and is OBD2 shaped
    2) The connector position in the car is not a funtion of the diagnostics software
    3) The OBD2 codes are not used in INPA because they are too simple
    4) DS2 does not nessesarily have to comply with ISO9141, since it is BMW's own system.


    Becuase right at the start we deleted all OBD2 confusion since as a messaging system it is not used with INPA; and focused solely on DS2 messaging system and the K line transciever for transporting those messages, we are only utilising a 16 pin shaped socket and a K line transicever in common with OBD2.

    To look at this in the opposite, you would need to find and download a piece of software that spoke OBD2, understood OBD2 responses and can drive a serial port in ISO9141 compliant ways to communicate in ODB2 with your USB-OBD2 cable.


    I hope this makes sense, if not please be more specific in your question.
     
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by joylove View Post
    please be more specific in your question.
    I was trying to be.

    When you say "USB-OBD2 adaptor (£6 eBay)"

    And then say "The only thing OBD2 about it is the shape "


    How do I identify something for £6 off ebay using the criteria of USB-ODB2, which I understand you are meaning physical shape only, and not from that description end up with an actual OBD2 in all respects device that is unsuitable for the purpose of speaking to an E36.

    There must be some keyword criteria tha makes selection easy

    I believe the above clarification will probably make it more confusing


    That or we are using a fully OBD2 device, but just using INPA to access the K line and the rest of the interfaces capabilities are of no interest to us?


    No warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability for any loss, damage or injury, no matter how incurred accepted.

    Free Gas Kit* now fitted to free 328*

    *Based on ROI period exceeded
     
     

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    #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36Coupe328 View Post
    That or we are using a fully OBD2 device, but just using INPA to access the K line and the rest of the interfaces capabilities are of no interest to us?
    It only fulfills two of the 4+ OBD2 requirements listed above - the shape and the K line transceiver.

    To get full OBD2 compliance you would need software to drive it with OBD2 messages. Something like OBDdiag or FreeOBD


    The message I was trying to communicate is that while the adaptor has OBD2 written on it, and fits an OBD2 compliant socket, the BMW is not being stimulated with OBD2.

    Therefore within this thread context an EU E36 1996+ can be stimulated with such an adaptor, even when the car is not equipped with an OBD2 data line or socket, like the yanks have.

    And if you had a Yank E36 with OBD2 port, you still wouldn't talk OBD2 to it with INPA and a USB-OBD2, same as E46, E39.
     
     

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    We'vegot our wires crossed (not literally)

    I have a 1994 325 and a 1995 328.

    I an not interested in ODB2, I want the cheapest way of speaking to the DME. I've got a KKL VAGCOM cable with 9 port serial connector on the way and the 20 pin adapter already.


    No warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability for any loss, damage or injury, no matter how incurred accepted.

    Free Gas Kit* now fitted to free 328*

    *Based on ROI period exceeded
     
     

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    #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by joylove View Post
    OBD2 defined a number of things
    1 a standard 16 pin connector
    2) that the connector be within a certain distance from the steering wheel
    3) A series of very basic codes to indicate faults
    4) That these codes be requested and transmitted using in the case on most cars, the ISO9141 standard, which defined things like start and stop bits, checksums, baudrates and a 12V idle/0V active one wire bi directional bus.

    Since INPA does not speak OBD2 to the car, beaucse it is severely gimped in the debug messages it can prouduce, and the adaptor is not responsible for applying start/stop, parity or baud rate to the messages (this is done by the PC software), and the ISO9141 compliance is not a mandatory requirment for DS2.

    Therefore, to say the only thing that is OBD2 about it is the shape is based on
    1) The connecotr is shared and is OBD2 shaped
    2) The connector position in the car is not a funtion of the diagnostics software
    3) The OBD2 codes are not used in INPA because they are too simple
    4) DS2 does not nessesarily have to comply with ISO9141, since it is BMW's own system.


    Becuase right at the start we deleted all OBD2 confusion since as a messaging system it is not used with INPA; and focused solely on DS2 messaging system and the K line transciever for transporting those messages, we are only utilising a 16 pin shaped socket and a K line transicever in common with OBD2.

    To look at this in the opposite, you would need to find and download a piece of software that spoke OBD2, understood OBD2 responses and can drive a serial port in ISO9141 compliant ways to communicate in ODB2 with your USB-OBD2 cable.




    I hope this makes sense, if not please be more specific in your question.


    Hi mate,
    Thank you for ur response, can u explain a bit more about "12V idle/0V active" what is it? i have seen this written in many places.

    2ndly, is BMW talking in DS2 or OBD2 then ? I know for fact that E46 can speak OBD as I connect my normal ELM interface to it but not my e36 which i think has some older protocol.
    I also have heard BMW from 2007 or higher has gone to new ds2 version which speaks in 100k buad rate, is that correct?

    One thing i appreciate if u could clarify,
    what is the difference between,
    Chipset such as ELM
    Protocol such as OBD
    and standard such as 9141

    and do u know the chipset for BMW e36?

    i asked quite few question but hope u don't mind
     
     

  12.  
    #60
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    seems to me joylove is explaining it fine and correct, but you chaps are making your quest to talk to your car way more complicated and confusing than you have to..

    basically if you want to talk to your car with INPA or BMW specific software you need an INPA compatible (KKline) OBD2 interface, not an OBD2 interface off any old bit of equipment like an ELM or a Genden etc etc as they ONLY talk in THE OBD2 language with their supplied software, "INPA DOES NOT" talk or communicate in the OBD2 standard language..

    most post 2000 BMW's you can either communicate with your car in OBD2 language or BMW's own language via INPA etc as they have dual communication capability, one is a multi platform car generic standard (OBD2), the other is the BMW specific platform..
    330i sport a big chunk of berlin...

     
     

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