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    #21
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    Agreed and it will not flow equaly to each runner according to the CFM data I have for a manifold off a supra of almost identical design. Manifold design is a night mare, did hundreds of mock ups and idealy you want a huge plenium chamber fed from inversly exponential curved walls from throttle body to runner entrys to equalise flow, but not so big as to give silly fill times, a FMIC can add 20ms to the full time of the pressure side of the engine, and a bigger plenium could double that. Bottom line tho as you make one area better another suffers. Idealistic is unobtainable.

    What sensor do you use with the wide band btw? 6 or 7 wire, Bosh, Motec etc etc etc. And where are those dash displays available from?

    Cheers
     
     

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    #22
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    Boostist,

    Thanks for the compliments.

    I have not run the car down the ¼ but do intent to. I have been on the lookout for some 16x8 wheels to fit some decent street slick (Mickey Thompson/Hossier etc) type tyres too when I go race. Do you or anyone reading this know of any OEM BMW wheels that are 16x8 with a 38-41mm offset that will fit the M3?

    You had mentioned in another post that the limits for the standard pistons are 500rwhp. Could you please elaborate on this? How did you come to this limit? Do you know someone that has actually made this rwhp on stock pistons? The reason to why I ask is if I have a definitive answer I will be inspired to up the boost to 10psi.

    To answer your and mrbarrys similar question Re the intake manifold. Personally I believe it is far more important to concentrate on “runner volume” rather than “plenum volume”. I consider “runner volume” the volume from the valve seat to the trumpet mouth.

    No doubt whatever type of intake manifold is designed there will always be some form of flow difference between runners. Currently at 8psi I am not too concerned however once the engine is built with stronger internals/elevated boost I will be running 6 individual pyros as one of the nice things about the Autronic is that I have individual Cyl fuel trimming based on load/rpm so in effect its like tuning 6 individual engines rather than a single 6 Cyl engine. Tuning in this manner will correct any uneven flow characteristic of the intake manifold.


    Mrbarry,

    The O2 sensor is the one that was supplied with the innovate kit. It is a 5-wire sensor. I purchased the DashDaq here in Australia by their DashDaq dealer. I believe the UK dealer is … http://www.dashdaq.co.uk/
     
     

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    #23
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    This week end I ran 30psi on standard pistons in a toyota, they are very poor quality for high boost being cemi forged with a high silica content, but a good map makes that unimportant, the engine is still absolutely fine. 3-psi is circa 460bhp on my Garrett GT3076r with the 256 cams and other hardware I used. So I would be more than happy to run 10psi on an M3 but then again you have to pay the rebuild if it goes wrong.

    What comp ratio is aht M3? I run 9.2:1 at 30psi, high but the ecu is mapped to compensate, the retarded ignition costs a few bhp but the extra efficiency on the higher comp ratio replaces that bhp, plus the turbo is spooled faster and earlier.

    My center feed manifold flows 1.5-2% more air into the center banks than the ends, I have flow bench results to suport that, best end feed I have seen for a 4 pot is 6% different to the far runner, a 6 pot would be worse by far. OK you can map that out using individual cylender trim compensation but allthough the AFR is the same in all ports the ones running less air will make less power and ultimately the engine will be down on power. The percentage also changes with flow volume, so as rpm rises the cylender trim must alter to suit, M400 custom 4d maps are supurb for this purpose.
     
     

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    #24
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    Mrbarry,

    The stock M3 compression ratio is 10.8 to 1.

    My comment regarding individual Cyl trimming is to first and foremost keep the engines target A/F “safe” between Cyl’s. I am well aware that flow to each runner can vary with rpm/load hence why I mentioned that the SM4 is capable of trimming each Cyl based on rpm/load.

    As for the varying power output between Cyl’s once the fuel trimming has been preformed, that’s simply the way it is when it comes to the world of modified engines. Assuming 550rwhp out of a 6 Cyl, then that is approx 92rwhp per Cyl. If we have a deviation of 5% airflow between the lowest flowing vs highest flowing runners then it works out to approx 5rwhp difference per Cyl. Knowing that each Cyl is now running the correct A/F and that there would be approx 5rwhp deviation between Cyl’s, id be more than happy with that result. Wouldn’t you? If not, how would you go about trying to yield perfect airflow between Cyl’s given the M3’s constraints within its engine bay?

    Any chance you can share/post your flow sheets/data you have on your intake manifolds? With 9.2 to 1 comp and 30psi, what fuel were you using? What ignition advance would the engine tolerate at peak torque and power? I would find it very difficult to believe that 9.2 comp with 30psi boost will tolerate more than a 4-6 Deg of ignition advance on pump fuel.
     
     

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    #25
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    at 30psi I use 102 Sunoco fuel, and it takes 3 or 4 degrees advance on top of a 10 degree base setting. On 98 road fuel I run 22 or 24psi. Those settings ar 2 degrees shy of det to allow for slight variations in fuel, humidity, all the rest of it.

    I wasnt having a pop with my post tho, just sharing some findings with the people reading the thread. I have been playing for years but am no expert. not even close. Just an enthusiast who has blown some stuff up, and had some fun

    I have been looking at data logs the last few days, what traces are you interested in seeing and I will post a section at 22psi. RPM, Boost, Ignition over base and throttle possition perhaps? I will get a snap shot and pop it on photo bucket then post it here.

    I also have some CFD work being done for manifolds and as soon as I get some nice results will post the pictures for people to look at.
     
     

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    #26
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    Mrbarry,

    To save any confusion/misunderstanding I didn’t take it as you were having a pop. I do understand that sometimes posts can be read incorrectly. Also understand that my reply question was of genuine interest. Even though there are plenty of “internet experts” out there, there are also people out there with plenty of talent/knowledge. My questions Re; what method you would have used to help equalize airflow between the 6 Cyl’s via intake manifold design was of genuine interest and not intended any other way.

    I’ll grant it to you that you admit that you have “blown some stuff up” via the learning process . Sometimes you need to take three steps back to make one step forward.

    As a matter of interest I managed to get my hands on a stock S50B30 piston. I cut the piston in half to have a better look. I was surprised at how soft/easy it was to machine the piston on the mill after cutting it on the saw.



    Mboon,

    There is a company called CA Automotive in the UK. I’m not sure if you have heard of them or not nor do I know if they are near you but its worth having a look at their site. Here is a link that may be of interest to you……

    http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/produ...faWQ9OA==.html
     
     

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    #27
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    OK bud thats good, I just dont want to rock any boats. I am no expert, I am interested in tuning, enjoy playing and finding out whatworks and what doesnt, still early days for me but it still shocks me some of the comments people make about tuning cars. Best being a guy who swore you can get 700bhp from a Skyline by simply doing exhaust, decat and air filter. Mmmm.

    I have some CDF stuff being done as I say, will post info once I have it in a new thread and here. It may be of use to some one, even if only to let them know what not to do :

    a Motec log from some testing last week, very gentle ignition and boost its a standard 257.000 mile engine.
    To upload it I had to change the file extention to a .txt, you need to change it back to a .LOG to open it in interpret Motec logging software. This map runs 10.7:1 AFRs and 5 degrees from Det, it was a rapid mapping session ready for a testing day. Speed is not logged as I use an aux input to sense speed not the dedicated SPD chanels, allows me to use a digital speed sensor and still enable launch control (Only used in the last few runs, runs are clear to see between taxi'ing)
    Attached Files
     
     

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    #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMEP View Post
    Boostist,

    Thanks for the compliments.

    I have not run the car down the ¼ but do intent to. I have been on the lookout for some 16x8 wheels to fit some decent street slick (Mickey Thompson/Hossier etc) type tyres too when I go race. Do you or anyone reading this know of any OEM BMW wheels that are 16x8 with a 38-41mm offset that will fit the M3?

    You had mentioned in another post that the limits for the standard pistons are 500rwhp. Could you please elaborate on this? How did you come to this limit? Do you know someone that has actually made this rwhp on stock pistons? The reason to why I ask is if I have a definitive answer I will be inspired to up the boost to 10psi.

    To answer your and mrbarrys similar question Re the intake manifold. Personally I believe it is far more important to concentrate on “runner volume” rather than “plenum volume”. I consider “runner volume” the volume from the valve seat to the trumpet mouth.

    No doubt whatever type of intake manifold is designed there will always be some form of flow difference between runners. Currently at 8psi I am not too concerned however once the engine is built with stronger internals/elevated boost I will be running 6 individual pyros as one of the nice things about the Autronic is that I have individual Cyl fuel trimming based on load/rpm so in effect its like tuning 6 individual engines rather than a single 6 Cyl engine. Tuning in this manner will correct any uneven flow characteristic of the intake manifold.


    Mrbarry,

    The O2 sensor is the one that was supplied with the innovate kit. It is a 5-wire sensor. I purchased the DashDaq here in Australia by their DashDaq dealer. I believe the UK dealer is … http://www.dashdaq.co.uk/

    Sorry for the slow reply!
    Somehow missed this thread again

    ok, 500 RWHP so ~~ approx ~ 575 engine hp is a figure that the mad Swedes have come to when turboing the S50B30 and B32 engine. That is with a good tune and no det or knock at all.

    The cast pistons apparently can fracture under this kind of horsepower and they basically go to fully forged pistons and Carillo or similar forged conrods if they are trying to get anything above 450 rwhp (safety margin).

    But that is the MOST hp they have made semi long term and not killed the engine with... and they are gods of turbo BMW!!


    You are making great numbers for a dyno dynamics and low boost.

    10 psi is the highest I would risk with such a high compression ratio... though you could always add water injection to the intake charge and squeeze a couple more psi out
     
     

  11.  
    #29
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    That’s cool Mrbarry, I’m not the type to rock boats either. No need for the added stress!

    The guy with the Skyline forgot to mention that the last 100 HP comes from the white stickers plastered down the front guards that says…. HKS, TRUST, SARD, even though the stickers add weight, they also add approx 100 HP! Lol

    Boostist,

    Id agree with the 575 flywheel power limit on these engine however with a limited life. I figure my 397rwhp is “probably” approx 490hp at the flywheel and have no doubt that 575 flywheel hp is easily attainable with a little more boost. For now though I will leave it all safe at 8psi. Oh, and the car already has water injection fitted.

    I already have a set of JE pistons and Carrillo rods as well as head and mains studs sitting on the shelf waiting to go into the engine when I rebuild it. Just waiting on some upgraded valve springs and stainless intake/inconel exhaust valves to arrive as well as a complete engine rebuild kit (Gaskets, seals etc) from a BMW dealer.

    Once I have all the parts required, there are a few things I need to do prior to going ahead with the remove/rebuild/replace of the engine. I’m soooooo looking forward to some more boost!
     
     

  12.  
    #30
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    do you have any pictures how whole exh. manifold looks? from cylinder up to turbo.
     
     

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