M50 to S54 CRANK SWAP

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  1. M50 to S54 CRANK SWAP 
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    Hi All,

    I am new to this forum. I have a 1992 M50B25 NV engine witch I like to turbo it.
    I read that m50b25 and s54b30 have the same bore, so those the s54b30 crank and con.rods + low compression forged pistons fitt in an M50 cast iron black ?
     
     

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    Have any body done this before ?? Is it possible ??
     
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by emvin View Post
    Hi All,

    I am new to this forum. I have a 1992 M50B25 NV engine witch I like to turbo it.
    I read that m50b25 and s54b30 have the same bore, so those the s54b30 crank and con.rods + low compression forged pistons fitt in an M50 cast iron black ?
    Hmm, I have never heard of this being done to be honest.
    It 'might be possible' but I am unsure. I will have to have a look at the technical specs of both engines and make an educated guess!

    Why dont you just turbo the M50B25 engine? they are very good with boost and can make more horsepower than you will likely ever need.
    You can use ARP head studs and an MLS headgasket to lower compression and run a GT30 or 35 and make 400hp at the rear wheels all day long if the tuning is GOOD
     
     

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    it's the M54 crank from a e46 330 etc your looking for
    Use the crank, rods and pistons
    the same crank was used in the US spec S52 motor
     
     

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    I have all ready turboed my m50b25 using a turbonetiks t04e stage 3 turbo capabile for 400bhp. I used the arp head studs and con.rod bolts, mls head gasket, KMS stand alone ecu, intercooler and methanol/water injection ( because out fuel in Malta is about 88-90RON). The best results I could get where 350bhp at the wheels with 12psi boost , but after some weeks I ended with 5 out of 6 dameged pistons(stock pistons) They cracked between the rings (from one ring to an other ).

    Now I am going for forged pistons , so I have to decide on witch cranke and con.rods I have to order the pistons !(castom made forged pistons)

    What do you think of this project ??
    Last edited by emvin; 04-12-2008 at 20:45.
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    Hi, i am also interested in m50/m54 internal transplants, i drive e36 325 with m50 but have an m54 2.5 sat in the garage begging to be either sold or robbed of its guts! whilst researching the matter i stumbled across this on another forum, not sure of its accuracy but it makes interesting reading either way!:

    RB30-POWER26-01-09, 04:46 PM
    Hey Guys,

    What I need to know is what model E36 BMW had what engine in our marketplace?

    I assume the 328i had the 2.8 M52 engine all along considering it was only available in M52 guise?

    The 323i came later on and i think had the M52 2.5L engine?

    And the 325i would of had the M50 2.5 early on and M52 2.5 in the later years? Anyone know the changeover dates if so?

    Can anyone clarify this?

    Did Australia have problems with the M52 and high sulfur content fuel causing damage, or was that only other markets in the world?

    Did anyone of our M52 have the TU3 designation with the steel liners, or what's the story there?

    Thanks for your help!

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    Turbo 35126-01-09, 04:53 PM
    Hey Guys,

    What I need to know is what model E36 BMW had what engine in our marketplace?

    I assume the 328i had the 2.8 M52 engine all along considering it was only available in M52 guise?Yes

    The 323i came later on and i think had the M52 2.5L engine?Yes

    And the 325i would of had the M50 2.5 early on and M52 2.5 in the later years? Anyone know the changeover dates if so?Only in M50 as far as i know

    Can anyone clarify this?

    Did Australia have problems with the M52 and high sulfur content fuel causing damage, or was that only other markets in the world? Not sure, but i don't think so

    Did anyone of our M52 have the TU3 designation with the steel liners, or what's the story there?

    Thanks for your help!

    See above

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    Madhatr26-01-09, 05:41 PM
    320i - M50/M50TU/M52/M52TU
    323i - M52/M52TU
    325i - M50/M50TU
    328i - M52/M52TU

    Easy way to tell the differences between engines is, m50 had no vanos, M50TU had single vanos, M52 had single vanos and a different inlet manifold, M52TU had double vanos and different manifold.

    323i motor is always a 2.5L M52, just detuned. They didnt start making them till late in 95.

    325i was always a 2.5L M50, they stopped making them in late 95 when it was replaced by the 2.3L and the 328i became the highline vehicle. The M50TU was introduced somewhere around mid 93, i cant remember when.

    M52's was released in 95, but you will find late 94 build models with the motor too.

    Problems with nikasil arent restricted to just specific places, the block is still a problem with high sulphur fuels regardless of where it is sent to (its still the same block), so it comes down to fuel quality rather than location. US and UK were the big places for issues, however some fuels sold here came from malaysia, so they had high sulphur content too. It could happen in australia, but it seems to have been a minor issue here, so not much to worry about. A compression test will find any problems though.

    All engines built from september 98 on have the updated steel liners. They kept making the 328i and 323i through till about the middle of 99, along with the 320i which stopped at the end of 98 (but i think they stopped selling them in aus in 96), you should be able to find some out here.

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    RB30-POWER26-01-09, 06:04 PM
    right, that is very very helpful to me.

    so your saying that early 325i have the non vanos m50 engine, this engine has double valve springs, ti retainers, m3 manifold etc, more or less identical to the early m3 cylinder head, or is that just rumour?

    on a seperate note, if you were going to turbocharge would the engine variant matter, i would prefer the m52, because it is >30kg lighter? but if strength is an issue, maybe the m50/tu variant would be more suitable.

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    Turbo 35126-01-09, 06:13 PM
    M52's are still fetching close to $3k for a complete motor in good condition, not sure if that is a factor for you or not, M50's Vanos are quite a bit cheaper, and non Vanos cheaper again.

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    RB30-POWER26-01-09, 06:46 PM
    reading a little in to it, this nikasil could be a drama, if you shit a piston/whatever, the reco cost on this type of engine is going to be considerable because it will need steel liners if i am right?

    if the m50 shit itself, just rebore it as per normal and off you go, albeit reduced cost of reco work?

    this is the type of thing that might make it worth even getting a later m52 with the steel liners for example.

    i am trying to do some research to work out what would be the best base to start with, keeping in mind a turbocharged application.

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    Madhatr26-01-09, 07:58 PM
    325i has the M50 with or without vanos, depending on the year. They dont have m3 manifolds, they run a thermoplastic one like the rest of the twincam series, just the ports and throttle body is bigger than the later m52 items. Its not usual for bmw to use ti retainers, simply because of their lifespan vs fatigue and their cost. They are just usually steel. As far as i know they only use single springs, like the rest of the twincam range (including the M52). They are the same as US M3 heads because their motors are essentially m5x series motors with a few mods, not the full blown european motors. So no idea if they are the same as the euro heads, never seen a pair side by side to compare.

    Iron block will give you more than enough strength, though I havent heard of many europeans having problems with alloy blocks either. Real question is, do you really want to be playing around with twincam vanos if you are turbocharging? the only issue i think you might run into is with aftermarket ecu's being able to control the vanos side of things. Might be an idea to speak to kenny (MrBlonde) on dtmpower.net as he has real experience with them in his coupe.

    Yes, if it shits the bed there is essentially no way to resurface the bores. Once its gone, its trashed for good. You'll either need to fit sleeves or replace the block.

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    RB30-POWER26-01-09, 09:05 PM
    a little research says there is two types with most single vanos m50 being an on/off type deal,

    off/retarded at idle,
    on/advanced at mid range,
    off again at the top end.

    basically two rpm switch points involved, similar operation to a rb nissan system.

    • Basic black/white (on/off) solenoid valve. Found on M50 TU and M52 engines.
    • Variable position solenoid valve. Found on the M52 TU and M62 TU engines.

    i'm yet to look into the actual control of the variable system.


    do you happen to know which engines got electronic throttle/drive by wire at all?

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    morerevsm326-01-09, 10:07 PM
    this thread may be very useful to you

    http://forums.*****************/foru...d.php?t=572535
    non vanos M50 has dual valve springs and bigger rods

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    RB30-POWER27-01-09, 06:07 PM
    that thread was very good, got some pointers on the forged rods etc, thankyou.

    i just found out, well from what i can tell, that the downfall with the 325i would be the getrag gearbox vs the 328i with the stronger/better ZF gearbox.

    sounds easy enough to swap over at a later date, but not sure what a zf would go for $ wise, might ring some wreckers tomorrow and find out.

    some people are saying that the getrag will spit chips at a lowly 300hp, although one guy said his is holding up and it has trapped 100mph, which would mean somewhere around 200kw at the tyres, but that is a bit lower then the power i have in mind.

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    morerevsm328-01-09, 02:55 PM
    I trap 106.xxmph with 200kw at the treads...

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    RB30-POWER28-01-09, 03:21 PM
    can't win with these engines, there is no *best* unless you mix parts from everything to make a good solid motor, and if you were going to do that, might as well go aftermarket.

    the m50 non vanos has forged rods with a cast crank, the m52 has for most years of its production life has forged crank and cast rods.

    anyone know anything about cast crankshafts, 400-500hp walk in a park?

    edit: it's spheroidal graphite casting if that helps any, apparently it is easy on the tools to machine when made, not sure if this type compromises strength much or not?

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    morerevsm328-01-09, 03:42 PM
    any of the motors will do 500hp on stock internals easily (with good tuning)

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    Madhatr28-01-09, 07:09 PM
    the bit about cast rods is wrong. Nobody uses cast rods anymore, especially not bmw.

    every rod from way back in the 70's has been forged, ive got some here to prove it if you want. I honestly havent heard of many getrags failing, but if you want a ZF just buy one and bolt it on. They all bolt up and use the same pattern. You could source the box from the US if you want.

    Never heard of bmw cranks breaking either, it just doesnt happen.

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    Madhatr28-01-09, 07:17 PM
    besides, there are plenty of aftermarket rods out there, everyone from arrow to pauter make rods for them. Arrow, pauter, eagle, carillo, manley, crower, huge choice at good (some better than others) for billet rods.

    edit: One thing you might not know about the bmw 6's is that you can swap the block and cranks from pretty much any motor right back to the 70's. M20, M50, M52, M54, they all use the same bearings (big and small ends). You can take a later model crank and drop it into one of the other blocks. Ive got an M52 crank here in mine. This also means you can use the rods from other motors if you wish.

    http://www.blackbmw.net/images/conte...ft/m20_m50.jpg

    M20 crank on the left, design comes from the 70's when they started making the motors. S50 (US m3 motor which is an M50) crank on the right.

    http://www.blackbmw.net/images/conte...50_inblock.jpg

    Here is the S50 crank in the M20 block with a cap fitted.

    http://www.blackbmw.net/images/conte...t/IMGP0948.jpg

    The 2.8L M52 crank for the black E21.

    Edit: S50 rod on the left, M20 on the right. Quite a big change over the years

    http://www.rd-motorsport.net/images/...l/M3%20rod.jpg

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    RB30-POWER28-01-09, 07:19 PM
    these are the early rods in question, that most people claim have big advantages over the later.

    i'm not sure you can tell just by looking anyway what the metalurgical structure is or isn't.

    also claimed they aren't actually heavier then the later rods, but haven't seen weights posted to know for sure.

    http://blowneuroz.com/rods.jpg



    so all this info is bs then and can be disregarded?

    E36 connecting rods-
    11 24 1 730 420 - 11/90 to 9/92 [FORGED ?]
    11 24 1 721 471 - 9/92 to 9/94 [not FORGED ?]
    11 24 1 739 725 - 9/94 to OBDII [not FORGED ?]
    11 24 1 744 315 - OBDII to 9/97 [FORGED]
    11 24 1 437 210 - post 9/97 [FORGED]

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    Madhatr28-01-09, 07:49 PM
    All rods are forged. Very few manufacturers use cast rods anymore, even in simple production engines. You'll learn there is a lot of crap out there in relation to info about bmw motors. A good one you hear a lot is semi forged.

    Heres some weights for you.

    M42 140mm/609grams
    S50 135mm/518grams
    M20 135mm/650grams(2.5)
    M20 130mm/617grams(2.7)

    Aftermarket.

    Titanium rods 360 grams.
    Eagle rods 540grams.
    Pauter rods 500grams (S50 or M20).
    Crower rods 520grams (though they make a 495 gram rod too).

    S50 is the US M3 based off an M50 engine. Those are the ones on the right in your pic, so the M50 rods on the left, you can expect them to be in the high 500's to pushing 600grams. The rods on the right were designed to be used in a pretty highly strung motor, they ran right through 8000rpm, so they arent exactly weak either. Honestly? the only weak spot ive found on bmw rods is the rod bolts. I havent seen many motors around that have twisted or bent a rod, but ive seen a fair share that have snapped the heads off the rod bolt and had a cap let go. I dont think you'd have any problems supporting 500hp on them, but, personally, anything above 400hp and Id probably be reaching for a new set of aftermarket ones. Simply from the standpoint they will be new, the tangs will be good and you usually get a set of new arp bolts with them.

    I mean, they really arent that expensive. Eagle make a set under $500 USD, crower are about a grand (around $170 each) while pauter are one of the more expensive in the market at around $1200 USD, Arrow is the absolute limit at about $2000. The rest fall somehwere between them.

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    RB30-POWER28-01-09, 08:43 PM
    cheers, that gives some idea on rod weights.

    gone from 48 hours ago really not having a clue about these m5x engines, to having a general idea on what these things are about now.

    these are the rods from the link posted above, took 700hp (us) from a maxed out gt35 and no doubt some detonation?

    so 400-500hp should be semi-reliable one would think.

    http://calaisturbo.metallichost.com/...cs/ccbent2.JPG

    the next question would be, they (e36) all seem to have dual mass flywheel as standard, is there any earlier factory solid flywheels that can be bolted up, not really that keen on a light weight aftermarket job, as i find cars with light flywheels to not drive that well (unless it's some ultra high rpm screamer), i prefer to store some energy up for continued motion.

    i'm under the impression (with all dual mass in general i guess) that expecting a standard dual mass to take 400-500hp would be just asking for trouble?

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    morerevsm328-01-09, 08:51 PM
    I have 8.5 lb alloy flywheel (UUC stage 2) with E34 m5 clutch, I still tow car trailer with it, it is very little different in traffic to what it was with the 39lb dual mass flywheel
    also that motor above did ~ 20000 miles at over 600whp (dynojet) before they cranked it up and destroyed it

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    Madhatr28-01-09, 09:18 PM
    crowns of those pistons look pretty nasty.

    Most of the aftermarket alu flywheels are made by a company called JB racing, so if you do look for a flywheel, start with them, then compare the price elsewhere.

    here's one prepared a little earlier.

    http://www.rd-motorsport.net/images/.../flywheel1.jpg

    http://www.rd-motorsport.net/images/.../flywheel2.jpg

    Those guys and fidanza probably crank out all the aftermarket flywheels for bmws.

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    RB30-POWER29-01-09, 03:31 PM
    this pdf is very informative re m50 vs m52 changes.

    http://landrover-online.dk/L-R%20WSM...M52_engine.pdf

    according to that the m52 rods are approx 12% lighter then the m50 rods, like the picture posted above.

    also describes the smaller tappets, single springs, and balance weights on the cams for better economy and reduced noise etc, which i think most people were aware of anyway.
     
     

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