1996 E36 328i itbs and remap

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  1. 1996 E36 328i itbs and remap 
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    I am after doing the m50 manifold mod but after thinking about it wont the throttles off the 3.0 m3 fit, has anyone done this? Also after the manifold change has anyone had their car mapped to run only on super to yeild more power?Also has anyone seen any decent gains from head work?
    Last edited by mark@vorny.co.uk; 04-11-2010 at 00:51.
     
     

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    Throttle bodies - It probably is possible, but i can't remember seeing a completed conversion, the injector angle is wrong, and the oil filter housing gets in the way.

    You can have it mapped for higher octane, but it's more of the range of use.

    The problem with advance and ignition is if too much heat builds up in the cylinder, the remaining mixture will explode.
    Advancing the ignition increases the cylinder pressures, and if it is too hot, and under too much load, it can detonate.

    As the car operates over a range of conditions and loads, it'll be tuned to be safe on the highest / worst possible conditions. Climbing a hill with you foot flat on the floor on a hot day is coming close to the limits of 95 octane, and can go over it.

    Using better fuel will help avoid it, but still, to get the absolute best, it will still be mapped for very rare harsh conditions that you might not ever see.
    You can get even more power if you promise to stay in cool climates and avoid hills.

    It's because of this range of conditions, and the need for the safe buffer under the worst conditions, you'll always be slightly under maximum power for 95% of the time.
    Whilst you may get 2-3 bhp day to day, you could be detonating under the harsher times.

    I would say the difference between 97+ only maps and regular ones would be less than what you'd see between morning driving, and driving at midday, and easily less than the range of differences you might see between engines.

    For the final point, headwork seems very rare, although i have no doubt it can work well.
     
     

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    Ah ok thats good to know before spending lots of money, when you say the injector angle is all wrong,not towards the back of the valve? Im new to bm's so if I ask silly questions try not to laugh, does the 3.0 head differ that much to the 2.8 item will it go straight on the 2.8 bottom end? I assume the cams in the 3.0 motor are of a higher profile but Bmw cant of gained 90hp from just cams and a 200cc increase.
     
     

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    Yea, i think it's the head has different port designs, so the ITBs on an M3 head are fine, but on anything else just hit the wall instead.

    I haven't heard of anyone fitting an M3 head, the bore diameters are different for one, although I'd imagine the bolt holes and other parts will line up exactly.

    The 2.8 is best thought of as a 240bhp engine that's been stifled by the intake manifold, but altogether, there were quite a few finishing touches done to the S50 M3 engine, like the exhaust manifolds, larger valves, full adjustable vanos etc.
     
     

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    As Enda has stated. The M3 ITBs won't fit.

    I spent 4 months designing and making all the bits to convert them to fit the 328 engine. I ended up selling the project to someone in the USA. There are far too many problems involved to make it viable. The m50 manifold/bbtb is a better option. Then top it off with a remap for even more gains.

    Basically nothing from the Euro M3 engines will fit the 328. But you can use the cams from the USA M3's.
     
     

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    the ITB's of the M3's have been fitted on M50/M52, however a flange is needed from what I recall. Basically, most of the people will avoid it since the gains are not worth the labour involved and usually go for M50 manifold and BBTB.

    that being said, would be nice to see a project on M50 ITB's.
    There are only two products required to make the universe work properly: Duct tape and WD40. 


    If it moves (and it shouldn't): duct tape. 
If it doesn’t move (and it should): WD40.

    Everything else is just stuff.
     
     

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    If the oil and coolant ways lined up with the bolt holes I suppose you could weld the chambers and have them re-machined. I promised myself I would not piss about with this car being my dd as I have a project on the go already.
     
     

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    It's highly likely everything will line up, BMW have been using the same block boring machine since the 70's or earlier, so as they develop a new 6 cyl engine, they use the same bore spacings as the model before to save having 2 sets of machinery.

    That's been carrying on for a while now, maybe updating the machines inbetween, but they end up sticking to a general engine spec for years.

    That does mean for example E46 M3 throttle bodies will line up perfectly with an M20 head, although bolts and angles etc will all be in the wrong places.

    The S50 was heavily based on the M50, so apart from maybe differences in sizes, most of the hardware would be in the same spot.

    Unfortunately, the little changes that are made make straight swaps very rare, but it's never a million miles away from it.
     
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistreku View Post
    the ITB's of the M3's have been fitted on M50/M52, however a flange is needed from what I recall. Basically, most of the people will avoid it since the gains are not worth the labour involved and usually go for M50 manifold and BBTB.

    that being said, would be nice to see a project on M50 ITB's.
    I've seen (well seen online) completed M52 ITB projects as well. If it could be done without an insane amount of effort I'm sure Alpina527 would have done it. When I had a spare set of ITB's (and a M52 in bits) I asked my brother to have a quick look at fitting them to my M52. He arrived very quickly at the same conclusion and fitted them to a mates M42 instead.

    I also agree that whilst it sounds like a fun thing to do I wouldn't imagine it'll give you significant gains on it's own.

    I've also done head work to an E36 before, the gains weren't great with that either!

    I think the traditional route of manifold, cams, remap and diff are the most productive ways of getting more out of a M52. Once you get beyond that it makes more financial sense to get a M3.

    Ian
     
     

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    A few old photo's from my M52 with S50 M3 ITBs project. Even if it worked, the injector angles were well off, so any power gain would be minimal.

    Here is the standard head.



    adaptor plates at 14 degrees with dowel holes and o-rings fitted. Note the transition from the wider M52 ports to the narrower but taller M3 ports. This is done with 5 axis 3d machining. The studs are also in different positions.



    Oil filter in the way.



    Just tune it by the trusted methods or drop an M3 lump in. It really isn't worth the hassle of fitting the bodies.
     
     

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